Introduction

R1b is the most common haplogroup in Western Europe with especially high incidence in Spain, Portugal, Western France and Ireland.  The modal, (or most commonly occurring haplotype), for this R1b of Western Europe is called the Atlantic Modal Haplotype, (AMH), Ysearch ID, C7BED.  For more information on AMH see the Links page. 

The first 25 markers of AMH in FTDNA format are:- 

Because of the large number of males that fall within this haplogroup, efforts have been made to find clusters that show differences in the Short Tandem Repeat, (STR), of their alleles from the AMH by looking for similar variations in the haplotypes. 

For those that believe they will find this discussion a little daunting, I suggest it may be worthwhile spending a little time with some basic reading:-

Is the Answer in your Genes? - Debbie Kennett - a succinct primer on DNA testing

Basic introduction to cells, chromosomes and DNA - Nancy Custer's excellent site 

I have the results of my Genetic Testing, Now What? - Blaine T. Bettinger

Glossary of DNA Terms - ISOGG

What Haplogroup do I belong to?

Your testing company has probably already suggested the broad haplogroup that you belong to, and if you are reading this page, you probably already know you are part of the R1b population.  If you are unsure of your haplogroup, try Jim Cullen's Haplogroup Predictor program.  R1b-IrishIII is one of the possible predictions of Jim's program and if your markers predict this sub-clade at greater than 95%, then you are in all probability Irish Type III.

Geneticist John McEwan has a website devoted to the R1b Haplotype, and I recommend spending some time checking it out, especially the "How to" guide explaining the use of the results from his site to help identify the "cluster" or haplogroup that you may belong to.  John McEwan's Website.  John has isolated some 49 clusters of STR markers that he has labelled R1bSTR1 to R1bSTR49.  John believes 'Irish Type III' is a variation of R1bSTR49 and is calling it R1bSTR49a on his R1xR1a spreadsheet.

Defining Haplogroups - SNP testing

While isolating clusters of haplotypes that have similar allele variations gives a reasonable probability of the haplogroup, a Single Nucleotide Polymorphorism, or SNP mutation formally differentiates them, and it is only after SNP testing that you can be sure you are a member of that haplogroup.  To learn more on SNPs see:- https://www.23andme.com/gen101/snps/ 

Within R1b, a series of SNPs have been discovered that divide this haplogroup and specific deep clade testing is required to identify which SNPs have occurred, (are positive or 'derived'), in a DNA sample.  At the current time little is known about the fraction of R1b these subclades define, nor what relationship they have with STR defined clusters, but this is changing.  With the continuing discovery of each new defining SNP, so the nomenclature of the various clusters is changed. For a view of the "R-2008" tree and the SNPs that identify each branch, check out the ISOGG page. 

One SNP, M269, which if positive, defines the R1b1b2 haplogroup - (was R1b1c) and can be called R-M269.  It has been estimated that perhaps 80% of R1b falls into this grouping.  It can, however, be further divided into various "clusters". 

R1b1b2 - R-M269 'Clusters'

Some clusters that have been identified by STR variations include Scots, Frisian, North West Irish and South Irish, denoting the geographical area that is ancestral for present day holders of similar haplotypes.  The genotyping companies are now offering SNP testing and results are coming in that are helping to relate the STR groupings to SNP markers.  For instance, M222+ appears to be carried by those that are in the NW Irish cluster and is presently called R1b1b2a2e or R-M222.  As the name suggests, this group has its ancestral home in the far North West counties of Ireland. 

The Irish Type III cluster

In April 2006, researcher Dr Ken Nordtvedt, identified another small grouping where the ancestral geographical area appears to be predominately Irish, but the haplogroup was quite different from NWIrish and South Irish.  As the third STR defined Irish grouping, it has been given the name 'Irish Type III' and its distinctive markers where it differs from AMH are: 

Some variation from these values can and does occur but two that always have the modal values are DYS459 = 8,9 and DYS463 = 23. 

Testing of DYS463 forms part of DNA-Heritage and Relative Genetics 43 marker test and is now available from FTDNA in "Y-STR DNA-FP Panel 2" as a single marker test for a very reasonable fee.  It is strongly recommended that this marker be tested, as all but one of the 99 Irish Type III who have tested, are 23*.  This would further confirm membership of the Irish Type III cluster.  As reported in Ysearch, most R1b is 22 at this marker.  It should be noted that FTDNA uses a different nomenclature to DNA-Heritage, Relative Genetics, Ancestry and Ysearch database.  Two (2) must be subtracted from the FTDNA result before posting to Ysearch, see reference:- email from Thomas Krahn of FTDNA.  So those that take the FTDNA test are likely to see this marker reported as 25 - enter the result as 23 in Ysearch.

* We have found one anomaly. In the Sorenson database there are three O'Briens all descended from the same Stephen O'Brien, b 1840, Co Clare.  Two are brothers and the third is the son of one of the brothers.  All markers tested are modal for Irish Type III except one brother has a value of 19 for DYS463.  A four-step mutation between two siblings is highly unlikely and so it is presumed this is an error in testing or recording.  Sorenson have been requested to check for an error.  So far we have not had a satisfactory response.  It is hoped testing at another laboratory will clear this matter up.

Searchs have been conducted in the Ysearch and other STR databases, and 306 haplotypes have now been found which relate to this new grouping, within a Genetic Distance, GD, of 8 to the modal on 37 markers, together with a further 15 'Outliers' (those that a part of the cluster but are some distance from the modal).  A record with the name "Modal R1b Irish Type III" and ID, NT4BZ, has been set up in Ysearch database, to assist others in searching for similar haplotypes and a 'minimum markers' ID has also been set up as WXEWM.

Go to http://www.ysearch.org/search_start.asp?uid= and enter WXEWM and Click 'Search'.  Then, change the input values to 'Allow a maximum genetic distance of 1' and Click 'Search'.  The majority of those that have DYS459 = 8,9 are of this cluster.  This spreadsheet shows all 181 Irish Type III haplotypes presently identified from the Ysearch and Ybase public databases.  Click Here.  I do not publish results that are not in these public databases for reasons of privacy.

Some are interested in the spread of alleles at each marker and these can be viewed on this spreadsheet. Click Here.

Where does 'Irish Type III' originate?

Looking at the ancestral geographical area for this grouping, of those who do not state 'USA' or 'Unknown', 79% participants state 'Ireland'.  Presently this is 101 of the 311 haplotypes, however many surnames with 'Unknown', or a state of the USA are obviously Irish in origin, O'Brien, Casey, Hogan etc. and if/when known would increase the Irish percentage even more.  The counties that are stated record:-

To see a Map of these Counties Click Here

Of the others who state an ancestral origin, 11% give 'Scotland' and 8% give 'England', (the counties of Devon and Wiltshire), a single haplotype given as Norway and two from Denmark. 

SNP Testing

23 Irish Type III participants are known to have been deep clade R1b SNP tested and all have tested positive for M269 and of these, 13 have tested for S116 (EA) / P312 (FTDNA) and all have proved positive.  Nine participants have tested for the 'S21-29' markers from EA or the equivalent 'U' series from FTDNA, which were all ancestral.  Two members have tested for the S68 marker which is also negative.  

So with all those who tested being S116/P312+ and NO SNPs below this one testing positive, the Irish Type III cluster is R-S116*. (The '*' indicates that all SNP markers below S116 have tested negative, ancestral).

My results are typical of this cluster with the following results:- 

The following table shows the expected state of each marker for the Irish Type III cluster, and is a record of my personal SNP testing.

SNP results of all those tested can be seen here.  Click Here

Significantly M222 was found to be negative clearly differentiating this group from NW Irish that has been found to be positive on this marker.

A Dalcassian (Dal gCáis) Signature?

There is sufficient evidence now that this clade is that of the Dalcassian clans of Clare, Limerick and Tipperary, the principal family of whom are the O'Briens.  I am aware that an O'Brien who has impeccable pedigree through the Barons of Inchiquin and of Thomond back to Brian Boru and hence to Cormac Cas is a member of our cluster which is good confirming evidence that Irish Type III is indeed Dalcassian.  Many Irish Type III surnames have connections with the O'Briens, such as Bryant, Kennedy, MacNamara, O'Donnell, Butler, Casey, Hogan and McGrath.  So Cormac Cas' ancestors, may very well be the progenitors of this cluster.

In the Links section there is a link to an out-of-print book Historical Memoirs of the O'Briens by John O'Donoghue, 1860.  It can be read on-line or downloaded as a 21Mb pdf download.  This gives valuable information on the connections to the O’Brien clan.

For a listing of Surnames found to have Irish Type III connections, Click Here. It must be stressed that having such a surname does NOT necessarily mean you are of this Irish Type III cluster. 

How old is this cluster

In May 2008 a set of 181 Haplotypes of 37 markers (or truncated to 37 markers), and a set of 81 Haplotypes of 67 markers, was processed calculating the averaged squared difference for each marker from the average result for that marker.  These were then averaged to give the variance of this cluster, and using the averaged mutation rates as published by Leo Little http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~geneticgenealogy/ratestuff.htm the years to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA), for the cluster was calculated to be 993 years for the 37 marker cluster and 966 years for the 67 marker cluster.

A further run omitting the variable markers of 385, 389, 459, 464 and CDY gave a time of 1086 years ±20%.  The MRCA for our cluster lived between 700AD-1100AD.  This is back to the times of Brian Boru and his uncles and cousins from whom the most common surnames carrying the cluster signature today, descend.

This gives an approximate time to TMRCA - so-called 'bottleneck' events, (where a previous colony of several/many people reach a situation where only one male has surviving male progeny and so all future members of the colony are descended from him), can mean that the progenitor of the haplogroup may have lived much earlier and so the cluster could be centuries older.  

How closely are we related

A very fast and easy to use program, SplitsTree4 has been used to construct a Phylographic network of the Irish Type III members how have extended to 67 markers.  It gives some indication of the relationship of various groupings within the Irish Type III cluster.  To view the Phylogram, Click Here 

What more can we do?

Firstly, set up a Ysearch record at www.ysearch.org if you have not already done so.  This will allow you to compare your results (haplotype) with all the others in the largest database available to everyone, perhaps finding others with similar surnames that you have common heritage with.  It will help others find you too.  If you do set up a record, and have tested with a laboratory other than FTDNA, please be aware that there are several markers that may need conversion.  See Ysearch Conversion Page.  As you have then published your results publicly, I am able to include them in the results page of the 'Irish Type III' website.  I will not post your results on the website unless you have a Ysearch record as I will always respect your right to privacy.  We will, however, get the greatest gains by being prepared to share our information and hence get more and better matches to one another.

If you are looking to find relationships with others in this cluster, either with your surname or another, extending your testing to 67 markers could be worthwhile.  Presently, only 94 members have extended to 67 markers.  Participant, John Bryant is looking at relationships between Bryant, West, Hart, Hogan and Donahue families in Virginia/South Carolina prior to 1800 and is finding 67 markers helpful, together with marker Y-GATA-A10.

If you are a genetic distance (GD) of 8 or more from the NT4BZ modal, you might test for the DYS463 marker as confirmation of membership of this cluster.  If you have tested with FTDNA, then DYS463 can be tested as a single marker in the 'Advanced Tests' linked from your personal page, for $7.20.  DYS463 is one of the markers tested by Ancestry.com, www.ancestry.com and also by Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation (SMGF) http://www.smgf.org/ who tests samples for free, but they do not report the results directly to you and testing can take up to 18 months.  Their site contains a database of results that can be searched by surname or haplotype.  If you have donated a sample to SMGF in the past, you may be able to locate your record by looking at the pedigree attached to each record.  SMGF tests include 9 additional markers that are not in the FTDNA standard 37 or 67 marker tests.  Consider testing for SNPs, particularly S116/P312.

Search for "our" SNP

We have noted that in the SMGF database, 35% of 'Irish Type III' haplotypes do not have a result recorded at marker DYS463.  This is much higher than in R1b in general.  It has been suggested that these 'nulls' may be due to an SNP located in the 'primer' region that SMGF uses to locate the DYS463 marker.  EA has conducted some research testing in this area but have been unsuccessful in finding anything of interest to us. 

The Future

As time goes on, more will be discovered about the Irish Type III grouping, but be happy in the knowledge that the DNA of your ancestors is calling you from the Emerald Isle.

If your markers show that you are Irish Type III, and particularly if you have been SNP tested, I welcome contact with your results.  I am particularly interested in those who now know their County of origin in Ireland, and/or are willing to have their results posted on this site.  I would also like to show the known history of surnames, particularly those with connections to the Dal gCáis O'Brien clan.