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Irish Eyes - Vol 2

Welcome to this 2nd addition of Irish Eyes 11 June 2007

The Irish Type III Website was set up in December 2006 and in six months, the website had received 1,550 hits.

Over 190 records of Irish Type III cluster members have been gathered in that time.

Do you have a Ysearch ID?

Could I first ask all members of this cluster, who haven't already done so, to set up a record at Ysearch.

If you have tested at FTDNA (Family Tree DNA), there is a 'Ysearch' button on your personal page that allows you to automatically upload your results after filling in your name, contact email address and oldest ancestor etc. Just be careful to manually adjust your values for the following markers as discussed in the last edition of this bulletin:-

UPDATE 01 March 2010

As from 01 March 2010, ySearch has fallen into line with NIST standards. ySearch is now expecting the higher values for DYS452 and DYS463. If you received your results from FTDNA, Ancestry or Genebase, these two markers need NO conversion

DYS463 subtract 2

DYS452 subtract 19 and

Y-GATA H4 Enter 'as is' if it is part of the standard 37 marker test, or subtract 1 if this was an "Advanced Marker" test. Why the difference?

Because recently FTDNA bought out DNA Fingerprint and it's principal Thomas Krahn. It is Thomas's lab that are doing the Advanced Marker tests in Houston TX ... to the DNA Fingerprint standard!

So ... IF the Y-GATA H4 is part of a 67 marker test it is done at FTDNA labs in Arizona and reported to FTDNA standards. Enter the result in Ysearch as is.

IF it is done as an advanced marker test with FTDNA, it is done at Thomas's labs to DNA Heritage standards! Subtract one from the result to enter in Ysearch.

If you have tested through DNA Heritage, Relative Genetics or Oxford, go to http://www.ysearch.org/add_start.asp?uid= to create your user ID and automatically upload all your results from your testing lab.

To sum up, here are the three markers we are interested in, together with the value Ysearch expects:-


Setting up a Ysearch ID allows others to quickly check for matches in the largest database available to everyone. As you have then published your results publicly, I am able to include them in the results page of the 'Irish Type III' website. I will not post them on the website unless you have a Ysearch record as I will always respect your right to privacy. We will, however, get the greatest gains by being prepared to share our information and hence get more and better matches to one another.

In an email to Genealogy-DNA@rootsweb.com list, Ken Nordtvedt who first identified our cluster (amongst many others) wrote the following. While he talks about Haplogroup I, the same situation is relevant for Haplogroup R especially R1b1c* and our cluster in particular:-

I would encourage those who get extended haplotypes measured to put them into Ysearch or similar public database. I have noticed the flow of new 67 marker haplogroup I haplotypes into Ysearch and Haplogroup Project sites has slowed to almost nothing lately. This is either due to testing companies' underlying orders and results drying up, or people not bothering to insert their results into Ysearch?

A number of us are trying to bring some illumination to the deep time clades which exists in the various haplogroups, and then hopefully relate those clades to each other and to the repopulation of Europe after the last glacial maximum. These efforts live on a flow of additional extended haplotypes. I specialize in trying to understand the history of y-haplogroup I, and some of my work is presented at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net

Some time ago some of us had a system for mining the public surname projects relatively efficiently for new extended haplotypes of interest to our studies. A change in software closed that window; in any event these surname projects number in the thousands, so the data is thinly dispersed. Databases like Ysearch or Haplogroup Projects are of increasing importance now.

If any of you with new 67 marker haplotypes in haplogroup "I" would prefer to forward your haplotypes to me off-list, I would be most interested in incorporating them into my private research database.

I in turn will continue to put my findings for the haplogroup on my public website as the mist clears concerning the various clades.


So please put your results into Ysearch ... it will benefit us all.

SMGF and DNA Heritage customers wishing to upgrade at FTDNA to 67 markers

There are several members of this cluster who have tested at labs other than FTDNA to at least 37 markers. This was my situation, having taken 12 markers with FTDNA and 43 markers with DNA Heritage. I had thought of extending to 67 markers, however the thought of paying for the 13-37 marker part again put me off.

I have had communication with Catherine McDonald of FTDNA who has suggested the following:-

"Order the 13 to 37 marker upgrade on invoice, and do not pay for it, and then order the 38 to 67 marker test, the 38 to 67 will be run but the 13 to 37 will not."

I have done this and the order has gone through just fine, so if you have tested at FTDNA for 12 markers, for an SNP test, or for some advanced markers like DYS463, now you have the opportunity of upgrading 38-67 markers for $99.00.

Fluxus Diagrams for R1b

Joe Knapp has run a Fluxus diagram on all the R1b entries that ran to 67 markers in Charles Kerchner's R1b project on FTDNA. You can see the distinct 'Irish Type III" cluster. R1b Clusters Thanks to those who extended to 67 markers - you are now seeing the benefits of your testing as our cluster is becoming more visible in the sea of R1b1c*.

Matches in the New World

John Bryant has submitted the following on his work on Irish Type III in Virginia:-

The study that I am doing is in what called the New River Area of VA or the counties just east of the New River Area it includes families that were in America before 1750. Until more are tested at Y67 there can not be any progress with this study. Much of the data is not public. My goal is to get everyone concerned at Y67 and public.

There is a second group of matches that is related but came later (to USA) that is listed on Sorenson with some members of this group on Y-search.

Also I had some questions about these matches happening over 1000 years ago.

By using J. D. McDonald TMRCA Calculator, which is at this site, (This program was created by J. D. McDonald and is public domain) http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/tmrca.htm

The 36/37 matches is about 7 generations to common ancestor or 175 years.
The 35/37 match is about 11 generations to common ancestor or 275 years.
This is the calculation to where there a 50% chance the common ancestor could be more generations or less generations. Test the calculator for your self.
Generations are 1/2 the number of transmission events.

John Bryant

Irish Pedigrees

I have found a site with many pedigrees that will be of interest to our cluster.

There are genealogies for O'Brien, Casey, Kennedy, McGrath, McMahon, MacNamara, O'Donoghue, O'Hara, amongst many others. Look carefully ... you may well find where our lines meet!
A prominent O'Brien has tested 'Irish Type III' and has an impeccable pedigree through the Barons Inchiquin, Marquises Thomond and Kings of Thomond to Brian Boru and to Cormac Cas. "Irish Type III' is most likely the DNA of the Dal gCais.

If any members have comments, suggestions or an article that you would like to write for Irish Eyes please drop me a line .... warning, this flyer may not be too regular !!!

Slainte, Dennis Wright