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Irish Eyes - Vol 4

Welcome to this 4th addition of Irish Eyes, 4 September 2007, I hope enjoy reading it.

The Irish Type III Website was set up in December 2006 and in nine months, the website has received 2,050 hits.

Over 210 records of Irish Type III cluster members have been gathered in that time.

Do you have a Ysearch ID?

Could I first ask all members of this cluster, who haven't already done so, to set up a record at Ysearch. Several have recently done this and their records have now been posted to the website.
Setting up a Ysearch ID allows others to quickly check for matches in the largest database available to everyone. As you have then published your results publicly, I am able to include them in the results page of the 'Irish Type III' website. I will not post them on the website unless you have a Ysearch record as I will always respect your right to privacy. We will, however, get the greatest gains by being prepared to share our information and hence get more and better matches to one another.

*Special Deal

It has been noted that in the SMGF database, 33% of 'Irish Type III' haplotypes do not have a result recorded at marker DYS463. This is much higher than in R1b in general. It has been suggested that these 'Nulls' may be due to an SNP located in the 'primer' region that SMGF uses to locate the DYS463 marker. The first bulk order has now closed so we see shortly whether EthnoAncestry can find an SNP exclusive to our cluster. Lets hope so!If you are interested in participating in later orders please contact John Marsh who has arranged the deal with EthnoAncestry.

How few we were

"The population of Scotland in the first centuries after the last Ice Age would have fitted comfortably inside a double-decker bus. Or at least that's what I was told by the director of the first archaeological dig I worked on as a student," says Neil Oliver, writing the foreword to Robin McKie's "The Face of Britain". Neil goes on, "It sounds like an outrageous statement - and it will always be impossible to prove or disprove, but the sentiment behind it was reasonable enough: our earliest ancestors in these islands were few indeed. The DNA from some of the passengers in that bus is still present within the cells of people living in Britain, an elsewhere in the world, today. The coded messages that shaped the looks and personalities of those ancient forebears might still be shaping us today." The situation would have been the same in Ireland, just a few hunter-gatherer pioneers a mere 400 generations ago that are the forebears of our "Irish Type III" cluster. But those first ancestors were not rushing to occupy virgin lands for themselves. "The movement was probably imperceptible, it was less of a journey and probably more like walking a little further down the beach to get away from the crowd," says Spencer Wells. In the end, one set of those beachcombers from their refuge in Spain ended up on the shores of Britain and Ireland and made their home there.

O'Mahony is Eoganacht, not Dalcassian

Tim Desmond has pointed out that while the O'Mahonys of Cork are descended from Brian Boru, they descend through Brian's daughter Sabh, who m. Cian, who is No. 109 on the "O'Mahony" pedigree, by whom she had Mathgabhuin, the founder of the family of O'Mahony, in the county Cork. Mathghamhain was killed, with many more of the Desmond fighting men, at the Battle of Clontarf in 1014. (Edward MacLysaght, Irish Families and Diarmuid O Murchadha, Family Names of County Cork ). So the males of the O'Mahony clan will not normally have the DNA of Brian Boru, Irish Type III. There is but one O'Mahony who so far has tested with the markers of our cluster. Thank you Tim for this correction.

An Interesting Pedigree for BRYANs and BUTLERs?

John Bryant has drawn my attention to the pedigree of a BRYAN, a member of our cluster presently living in Tennessee, USA, in the SMGF database. His details state:-
BRYAN[USA-Tennessee]: 3 gen, BRYAN[USA-North Carolina], BRYAN[USA-Pennsylvania], BRYAN[Denmark], BRYAN[Ireland]: 2 gen.
Now this pedigree may indicate an early source of our "Irish Type III" DNA. Depending on the voracity of this pedigree, this male line may indicate, Irish, English, Welsh or even Spanish roots.

When we look at the pedigree we find the first two generations protected (data hidden for privacy) and then we have:-

Alvin Lafayette BRYAN, b 10 Sept 1895, Coffee TN
Abner Reed BRYAN, b 10 Dec 1850, Coffee TN
John Morgan BRYAN, b 2 Mar 1812, Coffee TN
John BRYAN, b 7 Mar 1780, Rowan NC
John BRYAN, b, 9 Apr 1730, Opequon Creek, Shenandoah, Virginia
Morgan BRYAN, b 1671, Denmark
Francis BRYAN, b 1630, Clare, Ireland
William Smith BRYAN, b 1600, Clare, Ireland
Sir Francis BRYAN, b 1549, Clare, Ireland
Francis BRYAN, b 1490, Chidington, Bucks, England
Thomas BRYAN, b 1464, Cheddington, Bucks, England
Thomas BRYAN, b 1438, Cheddington, Bucks, England
Edmund BRYAN, b 1412, Cheddington, Bucks, England
Thomas BRYAN, b ~1358, Cheddington, Bucks, England (This date looks wrong ... probably abt 1300)
William de BRYAN, b ~1349, of Walwyns Castle, Pembroke, & Tor Brian, Devon, England
Guy de BRYAN (BRIENNE), b 1311, of Walwyns Castle, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Guy de BRYAN, b 1289, of Walwynscastle, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Guy de BRYAN, b 1254, of Walwynscastle, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Guy de BRYAN, b 1228,
Guy de BRIENNE, b 1202
Alphonse de BRIENNE, b 1172, of Brienne, France.
Jean, Count de BRIENNE, of Acre, Palestine

Now this Jean de BRIENNE married (3) Berenquela, Princess of Leon and Castille, dau of Alphonso IX Fernandez, King of Leon and Castile.

From other sources, I find:-

John (Jean) of Brienne, yr son of Erand II, Count of BRIENNE, (who fought in the 3rd crusade, being killed at Acre, 8 Feb 1191) by Agnes de Montfaucon (m, 1166), dau Richard III, Count of Montbeliard. He was b ca 1168, d 21 Mar 1237, King of Jerusalem, 1210-1215, Emperor of Constantinople, 1228, Crusader. Married (1) Mary de Montferrat, 1210; (2) Stephanie, dau of King of Armenia, 1214; (3) Berengaria, dau of Alphonso IX, King of Castile and Leon, 1223.

I also note:- Jean de BRIENNE and Berengaria of LEON had a son Jean de BRIENNE, Grand Butler of France, d 1296. Could this be the possible ancestor of the BUTLERs with "Irish Type III" DNA?

This BRYAN does not seem to have a Ysearch ID .... does anyone have any details on who this testee may be?

The Submission details of the pedigree data is:-

Lee and Marlene LACY
319 N 5th Street
USA 64735-1669

Family Stories

In the spirit of telling the stories of cluster members, Len Keane has sent this article.

O Cathain Pedigree

A Theoretical Revision based on Y-DNA Timelines & Conventional Evidence

by:- Leonard M. Keane, Jr., The O'Cahan

Len has an updated version of this pedigree on his FTDNA website:-

Keane DNA Website and click on "Results"

If any members have comments, suggestions or an article that you would like to write for Irish Eyes please drop me a line .... warning, this flyer may not be too regular !!!

Slainte, Dennis Wright