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Irish Eyes - Vol 5

Welcome to this 5th addition of Irish Eyes, 4 October 2007, I hope enjoy reading it.

The Irish Type III Website was set up in December 2006 and in ten months, the website has received 2,300 hits.

Over 210 records of Irish Type III cluster members have been gathered in that time. You are receiving this email as you are a member of this cluster.

Do you have a Ysearch ID?

Could I first ask all members of this cluster, who haven't already done so, to set up a record at Ysearch. Several have recently done this and their records have now been posted to the website.
Setting up a Ysearch ID allows others to quickly check for matches in the largest database available to everyone. As you have then published your results publicly, I am able to include them in the results page of the 'Irish Type III' website. I will not post them on the website unless you have a Ysearch record as I will always respect your right to privacy. We will, however, get the greatest gains by being prepared to share our information and hence get more and better matches to one another.

How do you get a Ysearch ID?

If you have tested at FTDNA (Family Tree DNA), there is a yellow 'Ysearch' button on the left-hand side of your personal page that allows you to automatically upload your results after filling in your name, contact email address and oldest ancestor etc.

UPDATE 01 March 2010

As from 01 March 2010, ySearch has fallen into line with NIST standards. ySearch is now expecting the higher values for DYS452 and DYS463. If you received your results from FTDNA, Ancestry or Genebase, these two markers need NO conversion

After you have transferred your data, you will need to manually adjust your values for the following markers to match the nomenclature used by Ysearch as FTDNA and Ysearch use different nomenclature on a couple of markers. See http://www.ysearch.org/conversion_page.asp
DYS463 subtract 2
DYS452 subtract 19
If you have tested through DNA Heritage, Relative Genetics or Oxford, go to http://www.ysearch.org/add_start.asp?uid= to create your user ID and automatically upload all your results from your testing lab.
You can enter the markers manually from this page but it is easier to do it automatically. I would appreciate an email with your new Ysearch ID when you have set it up and I will then load your results onto the website.

*Special Deals with EthnoAncestry

The first bulk order has now closed, but if you are interested in participating in later orders please contact John Marsh who has arranged the deal with EthnoAncestry.
Many have now ordered the test looking for an SNP for our cluster, so we shall see shortly whether EthnoAncestry can find such an SNP. Lets hope so!

Some confusion with S25 SNP testing

While our cluster is defined by quite distinctive markers, it doesn't become a new haplogroup unless an SNP is found that occurs in no other cluster.
It was noticed that in testing the DYS463 marker, some labs (SMGF in particular) were apparently having trouble getting a result which is why so many 'nulls', or no results, are posted on the SMGF website. Now in looking for a particular marker, the labs use a 'primer' region to limit the area of DNA they are looking at, and different labs have different proprietary 'primers'. If there happened to be a change in a base (an SNP) in the area of the 'primer', the lab may not be able to locate the marker they are looking for and would report a 'null'. The interesting thing is that John Marsh found that in SMGF, about 33% of our cluster had 'nulls' at DYS463, while the rest of R1b1c was much lower, perhaps 5%. So he is guessing that there might be an SNP, relating to our cluster, in the area of the primer that SMGF uses for locating DYS463.
Now the S25 SNP is near the DYS463 marker but its usefulness was initially rejected as it has been found in both R1a and R1b haplotypes. However when EthnoAncestry test for S25 they use a primer which isolates a relatively long stretch of DNA, encompassing the S25 SNP, the marker DYS463, and quite a stretch more of the Y-DNA. By asking them to test for 'S25', EthnoAncestry are going to look right along that whole stretch of DNA to see if they can find a variation, an SNP, which might be the one causing SMGF to miss finding DYS463 and hopefully be the elusive SNP our 'Irish Type III' is seeking. No promises! Just hopeful.
I have had my DYS463 tested by FTDNA who had no trouble finding it, and I am having the S25 test done. I hope this clears up some of the confusion in what taking the S25 SNP test is all about.

Phylogenetic Networks

There is a new program that is fast and easy to use for constructing networks of families and clusters called SplitsTree4. Now that we have 55 members of the cluster that have extended to 67 markers, I have used these haplotypes to construct a network which has been uploaded to the website. Click here. It shows quite clearly several family groups, for example most Caseys are shown close together and likewise for the Crow(e)s. Donohoe (11144) is the only member who is modal at 67 markers shown in the centre of the network with the Cluster Modal, NT4BZ. At Roger Rines' suggestion, I have added a "Click Here" to download the network phylogram in pdf format for better readability.

Some wonderful books available on Google Books for Free!!!

For those not aware, Google Books offers many books, in FULL, for free, while for others, short sections may be freely read. While they are mainly older books out of copyright, there are many that are quite interesting. For instance try the following for books on Dalcassian Genealogy. Try entering other areas of interest in the search box. These books can be read on-line or downloaded to be printed out or read at your leisure.

Copyright of Genealogical material

There are discussions from time-to-time on the ownership of information in databases and on various websites. A very interesting article on copyright matters can be found here:- http://dgmweb.net/genealogy/Ancillary/?OnE/Copyright.shtml It makes very interesting reading.

In a nutshell, Facts cannot be copyrighted, especially facts that are already in the public domain, ie in public databases like Ysearch, SMGF and the various FTDNA Surname project websites. What is copyrightable is any original writing, so any creative writing, such as a family history or a discussion of a pedigree is protected by copyright.

O'Brien Family Website

Many O'Briens are "Irish Type III", and Dennis O'Brien has recently taken over as Group Administrator of this Surname Project at

www.familytreedna.com/public/obrien and is promising to breath new life into the website.

Family Stories

In the spirit of telling the stories of cluster members, here is my story.

I was born in New Zealand, now living in Australia. My g-grandfather was a timber worker and was killed in the bush in New Zealand in 1874, one year before the death certificate required parents names and place of birth of the deceased. So I know Charles Wright was born 1832-3 but I don't know where. His will states "I leave all I have both real and personal to Alice McAvoy with whom I have been living. Charles Wright, his mark X". They had four children with my grandfather, John Wright, having been born in 1863. He died in 1938. New Zealand was visited by sealers and whalers from around 1800 and was only formally claimed by England in 1840. North of Auckland was heavily forested with few roads and record keeping was non-existent, let alone visits by the clergy. The tall straight timber of the Kauri with no side branches was highly prized for shipbuilding and it is said that Nelson sailed at Trafalgar with New Zealand Kauri masts and spars.

A seedling in the Maori's time,
Now, toughened by a thousand gales,
Straight stands the kauri in its prime,
Fit mast for proudest ship that sails.

For 30 years I have searched early censuses, newspapers, shipping records for my family and have so far found only two possibilities of my heritage.
1. A Charles Wright arrived in New Zealand on the "Cornwall" from Deal, Kent, England in 1849. If this was my g-grandfather he would have been 17 years old.
2. A John Wright, Blacksmith of Hokianga, North Auckland, married to a white wife (many early settlers took Maori wives) with 2 children is documented in a 1836 census, and 4 children in 1846. Charles could have been one of those children. There is no information on where this John Wright came from.

As "Wright" is an occupational name, it has origins throughout the British Isles as 'a worker in timber'. Without more detailed information it was pointless searching for a John or Charles Wright in England before Civil Registration.

Of course Charles Wright or his father could have been an escaped convict from the penal colony in New South Wales and may even have changed his name, possibly from Bryant or O'Brien! The National Archives of Ireland has an "Ireland-Australia Transportation Database". This database references 424 persons of the name Brien or O'Brien http://www.nationalarchives.ie/search/index.php?category=18
In these records I found a John O'Brien, who aged 19 in 1827, escaped from Sydney NSW and was never caught. Did he cross the Tasman and change his name to John Wright to escape capture? But all this is supposition and I was no closer to finding my roots.

I had read Ian Sykes "Seven Daughters of Eve" a few years ago so when I was approached by the Wright Surname Project Co-ordinator three years ago, I was ready to take a 12 marker y-DNA test, but it revealed nothing except that I had a couple of odd markers ... DYS390=26 and DYS19=15.

18 months ago I took a 43-marker y-DNA test with DNA Heritage and posting the results on GENEALOGY-DNA@rootsweb.com I received a response from Ken Nortdvedt who said that my markers matched a small cluster that he had identified that centred on the counties of Clare, Limerick and Tipperary in Ireland. He detailed the markers that defined the cluster and I matched. I was most surprised by this as I had expected my roots were in England. As two other Irish clusters had been identified as "North West Irish" and "South Irish", I started calling this cluster "Irish Type III" and the name has stuck.

The definitive markers Ken identified for this cluster are:-

DYS46323 (now reported as 25)

As no one else had taken an interest in researching this cluster I started to gather examples from Ysearch, Sorenson and various Surname Projects. In December 2006 I started the webpages to share the data I had collected. We now have over 210 members of the cluster. Common Surnames are O'Brien/Brien/Bryan/Bryant, Butler, Casey, Crow(e), O'Donoghue, Hart, Hogan, Kennedy, McCraw/McGraw/McGrath, McNamara. Most seem to be Dalcassian clans, the descendants of Cormac Cas and Brian Boru. There is other evidence that this is the signature of Brian Boru and Kings of Thomond.

While many on you are trying to find the relationship between others of your surname in the cluster, I know I will never fill the gap between Co Clare, Ireland and New Zealand of the early 1800s, but to know that my roots are in Ireland is all I need to know. I know where my homeland is. Our eldest son, born in Australia, has married an Irish girl from Dungarvan, Co Waterford. They married in Cratloe, just south of Ennis, Co Clare, in the heart of "Irish Type III" country, before I was aware of our connections with the area.

They have given us two wonderful grandsons, Finn and Tadhg ... what lovely Irish names, and they too, of course, have the y-DNA of Brian Boru!

If any members have comments, suggestions or an article that you would like to write for Irish Eyes please drop me a line .... warning, this flyer may not be too regular !!!

Slainte, Dennis Wright