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Irish Eyes - Vol 13

Welcome to this addition of Irish Eyes, 09 May 2009, I hope you enjoy reading it.
This email Irish Eyes has been sent to you as you are a member of the R1b DNA cluster called "Irish Type III".
If you do not wish to receive any further bulletins, please and I will remove you from the distribution list.
Our website is at www.irishtype3dna.org/ and continues to attract visitors, now over 10,000 in the last two years. Who would have believed there would have been so much interest!

Deep Clade Testing - SNP Tests

Many like to partake of Deep Clade testing to confirm their haplogroup. While this is admirable, sufficient testing has now been down for me to suggest that you will be found to be L21+. All Irish Type III tested to date are positive, derived, for this SNP and all SNPs below have proved negative, ancestral as shown in this chart.

Tree 2

October 2011: The above chart is no longer relevant. Please refer to ISOGG R-Tree instead as this is kept up-to-date.

Some members may have independently tested for some SNPs and so are not listed on our SNP page, www.irishtype3dna.org/snpmarkers.php Please let me know your results so I can include them.

L21 - Walk in the Y

This SNP is found to apply to most Irish R1b and a considerable section of English and some European R1b as well.
In an effort to split this large cluster a search is underway to find more SNPs. Thomas Krahn of FTDNA, (and previously of the German company DNA Fingerprint), has suggested a novel way of finding more SNPs. His paper to the FTDNA Conference this year outlines the method he has in mind. http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/static/FTDNA-Conference-2009-WalkThroughY.pdf
The idea is samples from people in each of the various L21+ clusters be tested along an extended section of the Y chromosome and any differences examined. These may be the elusive SNPs needed to separate each cluster.
The cost to test is $750 per sample and the idea would be that say 10 people from each cluster would put in to have one of their number tested. It is a research project with no firm certainty of success, but this is how we progress.
A project has been set up at FTDNA, http://www.familytreedna.com/public/RL21WTY2009/default.aspx and I have stumped up my $75 for a chance to see if our cluster has a new SNP. Are there others out there also willing?
If you choose to contribute, Select 'R' in the first box, 'R-L21WTY' in the second and write "Irish Type III" in the Notes section. Donation is 'Individual' and the project accepts PayPal payments.

400 Members

I am pleased to be able to report that we now have 410 members in the cluster, and climbing steadily. Certainly we seem to be on a roll with more and more people taking the plunge into DNA to assist in their Genealogy research.
Welcome to the new members, many of whom tested at Ancestry.com, that are receiving this flyer for the first time. (As I have warned before it may not be too regular!)

Ysearch IDs

If you haven't already done so, please set up a Ysearch ID at www.ysearch.org

Setting up a Ysearch ID allows others to quickly check for matches in the largest database available to everyone. As you have then published your results publicly, I am able to include them in the results page of the 'Irish Type III' website. I will not post them on the website unless you have a Ysearch record as I will always respect your right to privacy.

We all will, however, get the greatest gains by being prepared to share our information and hence get more and better matches to one another. Those with 67 markers have the added benefit of being included in the Phylogram for our cluster which allows those members to see their nearest genetic relations.

UPDATE 01 March 2010

As from 01 March 2010, ySearch has fallen into line with NIST standards. ySearch is now expecting the higher values for DYS452 and DYS463. If you received your results from FTDNA, Ancestry or Genebase, these two markers need NO conversion

If you do elect to set up a Ysearch ID, be aware that some Ancestry markers need conversion as Ysearch reports them differently.
The markers that require conversion are:-

DYS441 -1
DYS442 -5
DYS452 -19
DYS463 -2
Y-GATA-A10 -2
Y-GATA-H4.1 -11

That is you subtract the above from your value before entering in Ysearch.
For example, Your DYS463=25 so subtract 2 and enter 23 in Ysearch.

For FTDNA testees, you can transfer your results automatically and the conversions are done for you. Here is FTDNA FAQ on transfer:-

You can upload your Y-DNA results to Ysearch using a link provided in the Y-DNA Matches section of your personal page.
This link is located just above your list of matches and says "Click here to upload to Ysearch.org."
Using this link will automatically fill in your Y-DNA results in the "Create a New User page on Ysearch."
Fill in the remaining information that you know and click "Save Information to create your Ysearch account."

Only DYS452 will be adjusted in this transfer, subtracting 11 from the value FTDNA reports to you, for example DYS452=30 will be adjusted to DYS452=11 in Ysearch.
Then with your Ysearch ID and I will include your results on the Results page.

Steep learning curve?

If you are finding all this DNA stuff gobble-de-gook drop me a line.

Firstly I would like to help you if I can .... I still remember diving into the same pool barely four years ago. If others hadn't helped me I wouldn't have gained the knowledge that I have.
Secondly, if I find similar questions from a number of members I can write up an item in Irish Eyes which may well help others too.

Washington State University SNP testing

Some time ago I advised that I had submitted a sample to Brian Kemp's study at Washington State University. Unfortunately this project has been abandoned as his Co-researcher, Dennis Garvey states:-
Recent developments have made it clear that it is not worth the time of Brian Kemp and I to pursue the R1b YSNP project in the form that we originally described. Specifically, making everyone's results immediately available on a public website, and then being stuck waiting (up to a year or more!) for our subsequent paper to wend it's way through the publication review process is not just a viable plan in the present YSNP research climate.

It would appear that the FTDNA "Walk on the Y" has more promise of finding something useful for us.


I recently had an alternative form of testing performed at a company called 23andMe www.23andme.com This company is testing an extremely broad range of SNPs across ALL chromosomes. Testing our cluster will show your result at P312 and L21 for cluster verification, most points of interest on your mtDNA; I am now classified as J1c1c; and offers many insights into your personal health risks and traits.

Some people just don't want to know .... but I prefer to know my risks and attempt to do something about them, be it diet or more regular testing in a particularly vulnerable area.
It seems hard to believe but they test and report back to you the results of 577,000 SNPs for just $399. Amazing!

This email, Irish Eyes, has been sent to you as you are a member of the R1b DNA cluster called "Irish Type III".
If you do not wish to receive any further bulletins, please and I will remove you from the distribution list.

Slainte, Dennis Wright